topic Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC? in Android TV

Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

nucleoXXI — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 10:31:08 GMT

Hello,

I've been trying to find further information, but so far no luck. Perhaps someone here knows?

Do you know or is it feasible to think that SONY will provide a firmware update to i.e. A1 OLED sets to support eARC?

What I've been told is that the competition, SAMSUNG will support it later for i.e. KS8000.

Reason why I would like to know is that I would like to update my home theather setup with a new A/V receiver. The model that I'm interested in (2016 line-up) will not support eARC and will not be updated via firmware (but better news is that the price will drop). The new model (2017) which is set to be released any week now will however support eARC onboard, but for much higher cost.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Jecht_Sin — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 11:31:13 GMT

I doubt either the A1 Oled and KS8000 can support eARC via an OS update. For it to work they need an HDMI 2.1 port. Both have only up to HDMI 2.0, or so I read in rtings.com.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

nucleoXXI — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:19:19 GMT

Marantz SR7012 and Denon X4400H are two A/V receivers which won't have HDMI 2.1 and will support eARC. I guess that feature does not need the super bandwith which will be available via HDMI 2.1.

Scroll down to specifications >> HDMI and you can see it foryourself.

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx4400h

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 16:08:46 GMT

HDMI consortium indeed states that some new stuff like dynamic HDR and eARC might be possible with just a firmware update, see here. You might not be able to do it with any hardware though.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

nucleoXXI — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 19:16:33 GMT

Exactly!

So the question is if any of Sony's 2016 and 2017 will have the necessary h/w and if a f/w update will be presentet? I asked Sony Nordic (Sweden) branch of Sony Europe Limited (UK) and did not get more than the answer that they don't know anything about future updates.

Hope some news will come up sooner or later.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Jecht_Sin — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 10:08:31 GMT

Oh, all right then. My bad. A couple of days ago I was investigating exactly about that (actually more about the HDMI/ARC bandwidth because it makes little sense to me indeed that 2.0 doesn't have enough bandwidth for ARC to have at least DTS-HD/Dolby Trued HD 7.1. What is it? Few Mbps top?) but all I could find was that HDMI 2.1 is needed. It is a nightmare to find any throughput number.

So, should it be impemented first by Google in Android? Still it doesn't matter, because even if Mediatek will implement it, it will sure be broken... I would be happy if I could get just the DTS passthrough.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:13:02 GMT

I think that it is limited to PCM 2.0 24-Bit 192kHz, which translates to 9.2mbps. That's probably why it is good enough for DD+ (and DD+ Dolby Atmos), but not for True HD which specifies up to 18mbps.

Google and Android support any audio format already. You can use it with SHIELD for example. It does not need any changes for eARC. That's a driver and hardware only thing.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

nucleoXXI — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:06:24 GMT

Have I understood you correct by giving the following example:

Netflix starts presenting DTS HD-MA or Dolby Atmos (lets say 5.1). Then a Sony Android TV connected to a AV Receiver which has support for the mentioned audio formats can get the signal through regular HDMI ARC port, thus not needing eARC?

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:11:20 GMT

As for lossy Atmos (as DD+ bistream), yes.

No lossless Atmos (as True HD) though. Should also be true for DTS-HD.

At least that is what I think. AVR also has to support DD+ over ARC though.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Jecht_Sin — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:32:23 GMT

That's what I don't understand. HDMI 2.0 supports up to 18Gbps. ARC uses the wires of HEAC (ethenet and audio over channel). The ethernet max bandwidth via HDMI 1.4 is 100Mbps. Since that channel is used as ethernet only or ARC only I am not really sure why ARC has to be limited to 9.2 Mbps.

Sure I understand things are quite more complex than that. An ethernet channel is allowed to loose few packets, they just get retransmitted again. While it would be quite bad if it happens with an audio signal. But I do believe the ARC channel would be perfectly able to substain at least 20-25Mbps, especially on HDMI 2.0. It really makes me wonder what they were thinking when they defined the HDMI 2.0 standard. Also because, as we have seen now, some devices can support eARC via HDMI 2.0.

Kuschelmonschter wrote:

Google and Android support any audio format already. You can use it with SHIELD for example. It does not need any changes for eARC. That's a driver only thing.

Sorry, why would the Nvidia Shield use ARC/eARC? I don't think it needs to, it sends the audio together with the video. Like the PS4. Or I am missing something?

Still my point was that Mediatek is perfectly capable to mess up the eARC driver, if potentially our TVs can support it. They can't even make the USB working.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Jecht_Sin — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:34:22 GMT

Kuschelmonschter wrote:
As for lossy Atmos (as DD+ bistream), yes.

No lossless Atmos (as True HD) though. Should also be true for DTS-HD.

At least that is what I think. AVR also has to support DD+ over ARC though.

My AVR supports DD+ over ARC! How could I test it with lossy Atmos?

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 13:44:04 GMT

Check out the Helicopter sample here. According to MediaInfo, it has a lossy DD+/E-AC3 Atmos and a lossless True HD Atmos track.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 14:44:08 GMT

I have just seen that you have the Yamaha AVR. It supports DD+ but not the Atmos metadata...

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

nucleoXXI — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 07:38:28 GMT

@Kuschelmonschter wrote:
As for lossy Atmos (as DD+ bistream), yes.

No lossless Atmos (as True HD) though. Should also be true for DTS-HD.

At least that is what I think. AVR also has to support DD+ over ARC though.

Based on your thoughts it means eARC support on a new AV receiver is really to be considered if a service like netflix or TV channel distributor would start offering lossless i.e. DTS HD MA and Dolby Atmos?

Which in that case feels unlikely considering the bandwidth.

Correct me if I've misunderstood.

added text after the latest edit:

But let's suppose the TVs Netflix app would within near future (1-3 years) support lossless HD audio and that Android TV's are updated with the latest formats and etc. Then the only way for you to enjoy the HD audio would be that the AV receiver has eARC support right? Would it also require the TV to have HDMI 2.1?

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 08:08:55 GMT

Based on your thoughts it means eARC support on a new AV receiver is really to be considered if a service like netflix or TV channel distributor would start offering lossless i.e. DTS HD MA and Dolby Atmos?

It would even make sense today as you can already play lossless audio in players like Kodi or Plex.

I wonder whether lossless multi-channel audio makes a lot of sense for streaming services like Netflix though. I am fine with traditional Dolby/DTS. Those are still perfectly enough for home use in my opinion. I spent my money on a sound system with good analog parts to fully leverage those formats. And it is probably much better than many systems which do support lossless audio. If you really want to hear the difference you will have to spend money somewhere in the area of a new mid-class car.

Then the only way for you to enjoy the HD audio would be that the AV receiver has eARC support right? Would it also require the TV to have HDMI 2.1?

No. As you stated yourself already, a lot of today's devices can be updated to support eARC without actually requiring HDMI 2.1. You will find out whether you are among the lucky ones .

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

nucleoXXI — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 08:15:34 GMT

@Kuschelmonschter wrote:

Then the only way for you to enjoy the HD audio would be that the AV receiver has eARC support right? Would it also require the TV to have HDMI 2.1?
No. As you stated yourself already, a lot of today's devices can be updated to support eARC without actually requiring HDMI 2.1. You will find out whether you are among the lucky ones .

Hahaha... Yeah while I was changing our babys diaper a few minutes ago I was thinking.... Wait a minute what did I just say there?

Yeah I suppose you are right, time will tell.

But as everything looks right now for lossless HD Audio from i.e. Netflix, Sony Android TVs must be updated to support eARC?

But for lossy HD Audio (Netflix Dolby Atmos) everything is up to date for running from Sonys Android sets (granted you have an AV receiver which has Dolby Atmos support)?

Thanks for all the input btw!

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 08:20:41 GMT

But as everything looks right now for lossless HD Audio from i.e. Netflix, Sony Android TVs must be updated to support eARC?

I am just speculating here, not knowing the very details of ARC or eARC specs, but I think that eARC is the common denominator for lossless audio.

But for lossy HD Audio (Netflix Dolby Atmos) everything is up to date for running from Sonys Android sets (granted you have an AV receiver which has Dolby Atmos support)?

From what I have read, yes. I am not sure whether every AVR which supports Atmos also accepts it over ARC. But I suppose most do...

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Jecht_Sin — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 08:26:03 GMT

Kuschelmonschter wrote:
I have just seen that you have the Yamaha AVR. It supports DD+ but not the Atmos metadata...

Yeah.. It was a long shot. Plex passes the DD+ audio through but there is no sound. Also it complains that the format m2ts isn't supported (but it direct plays it just fine using AC3). SPMC plays it but with EAC3 there is no audio (it doesn't even bother to convert it, as it does instead with Doldy TruedHD). Sony's Video simply doesn't recognize the m2ts format.

Bizarre.. The PS4 plays it with Plex using EAC3. I am not sure if Plex is converting anything (the Plex interface on PS4 doesn't have any info about it and the server CPU usage is very low). Probably it is because the PS4 itself usually does the conversion into something the AVR understands. No matter if set in Linear PCM or Bitstream Dolby/DTS.

Well, not that it is a big deal. With 5.1 speakers Dolby Atmos and DTS:X are practically useless.

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

rooobb — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 11:03:53 GMT

Jecht_Sin ha scritto:

[..] Sony's Video simply doesn't recognize the m2ts format.[..]

Are you sure about that?!? Sony Handycams record HD videos in m2ts format and Video app is able to read it .......

Re: Will SONY provide firmware update to support eARC?

Kuschelmonschter — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 11:07:20 GMT

m2ts is supported but not with any AV format inside... It probably does not like the Atmos...